Afghanistan

In the SST forum, users are free to discuss philosophy, music, art, religion, sock colour, whatever. It's a haven from the madness of Bulldrek; alternately intellectual and mundane, this is where the controversy takes place.
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Post by 3278 »

PMWrestler wrote:
You would detach yourself a little more. You would be the one who wants to better the world, not enact vengeance.
Besides my bloodlist for these bastards, how about the fact that if we don't retaliate for this, the people around the world would realize that America can be swayed by terrorist attacks?That we'll give in whenever we are pushed. If we don't retaliate, then what's coming, makes the Trade Center look like a walk in the park.
Yeah, it sure would be horrible if everyone in the world knew that the United States were capable of admitting when it's wrong, and trying to be rational and fair about the whole thing. That'd really kill our reputation down at the gym.

I see what you're saying, I really do, and I support keeping a strong stance in the face of attacks. But there comes a point when we say, "Okay. We're done killing you now. I think you know we could keep going, but since we caused this as much as you did, we're going to talk about it. Just remember, next time, don't fucking attack us, or we'll fucking kill you again. If you've got a problem, come talk to us. Sure, we ignored you before, but we're a little more grown-up now."
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Post by PMWrestler »

Ah, yes. I recall that. You do recall that most of the people saying we need to be nice to them weren't American, right?
Ohh...I didn't notice the location written underneath thier names, and I'm not familiar with anyone on the boards, so I didn't know/realize that they weren't American. Sorry.
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Post by Adam »

PMWrestler wrote: As a matter of fact I /did/ mean the information you can get off of it. But....if you can get the information off if it....wouldn't that make the informtion part of the internet itself?
No.
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Post by Spiral »

Does that change your perspective on said thread?
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Post by 3278 »

PMWrestler wrote:
Ah, yes. I recall that. You do recall that most of the people saying we need to be nice to them weren't American, right?
Ohh...I didn't notice the location written underneath thier names, and I'm not familiar with anyone on the boards, so I didn't know/realize that they weren't American. Sorry.
No, no. That's okay. As I say, you had no way of knowing.
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Post by PMWrestler »

I see what you're saying, I really do, and I support keeping a strong stance in the face of attacks. But there comes a point when we say, "Okay. We're done killing you now. I think you know we could keep going, but since we caused this as much as you did, we're going to talk about it. Just remember, next time, don't fucking attack us, or we'll fucking kill you again. If you've got a problem, come talk to us. Sure, we ignored you before, but we're a little more grown-up now."
Sure, that would be fine by me, talking to them to end the violence. And if we were fighting England, or Russia, or Germany, or someone who would be rational about it, then we could end the fight.

But, these Mid Easterners are also motivated my aggresive Islamic preachings....preachings that disgrace Islam. And somebody on a Jihad can not be reasoned with. It's the same as how the Christians could not be reasoned with during the Crusades. So to stop them, we need to inflict a tremendous amount of casualties, to prove our point.
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Post by 3278 »

PMWrestler wrote:
3278 wrote:I see what you're saying, I really do, and I support keeping a strong stance in the face of attacks. But there comes a point when we say, "Okay. We're done killing you now. I think you know we could keep going, but since we caused this as much as you did, we're going to talk about it. Just remember, next time, don't fucking attack us, or we'll fucking kill you again. If you've got a problem, come talk to us. Sure, we ignored you before, but we're a little more grown-up now."
Sure, that would be fine by me, talking to them to end the violence. And if we were fighting England, or Russia, or Germany, or someone who would be rational about it, then we could end the fight.
The idea that the English, the Russians, and the Germans are "rational" is mind-boggling in the face of history.
PMWrester wrote:But, these Mid Easterners are also motivated my aggresive Islamic preachings....preachings that disgrace Islam.
"These Mid Easterners." Wow. Nice generalization. You just lumped everyone in the Middle East into a group that follows teachings that discrace Islam. Neat.

I've got one for you, and Sal doesn't get to answer this, since I think he's likely already heard the question: Islamic Extremism is to Islam and as ______ is to Christianity.
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Post by PMWrestler »

"These Mid Easterners." Wow. Nice generalization. You just lumped everyone in the Middle East into a group that follows teachings that discrace Islam. Neat.
So the Islamic Militants aren't from the Mid-East? I never said that everyone from there was a militant, just these people. And I have no clue what the answer to your question is.
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Post by 3278 »

PMWrestler wrote:
"These Mid Easterners." Wow. Nice generalization. You just lumped everyone in the Middle East into a group that follows teachings that discrace Islam. Neat.
So the Islamic Militants aren't from the Mid-East? I never said that everyone from there was a militant, just these people.
Well, that may have been what you intended to say.
PMWrestler wrote: And I have no clue what the answer to your question is.
Islamic Extremism is to Islam as ______ is to Christianity. Anyone?
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Post by PMWrestler »

All I can think of is something related to the KKK, who hate jews and catholics, and only like protestants. And kill those who are Jewish or Catholic, using religion as thier excuse? Thats all that comes to mind right now
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Post by 3278 »

PMWrestler wrote: All I can think of is something related to the KKK, who hate jews and catholics, and only like protestants. And kill those who are Jewish or Catholic, using religion as thier excuse? Thats all that comes to mind right now
Exactly. Islamic Extremism is to Islam as the KKK is to Christianity.

Can we reason with the KKK? Are they so inhuman that they can't be reasoned with? And in the case of the KKK, what is it that allowed the people they hated to become free and equal with the Klan members? Was it violence?
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Post by PMWrestler »

Can we reason with the KKK? Are they so inhuman that they can't be reasoned with? And in the case of the KKK, what is it that allowed the people they hated to become free and equal with the Klan members? Was it violence?
Very True. Unfortunatley though, Afghans don't have to abide by American Law and penalties of law. The KKK does, and was eventually punished for it's actions....(I think?/hope? I'm not really an expert on that part of American History)
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Post by Jestyr »

If twice the number of speeding violations were commited by a certain kind of car, than by all the others combined, I'm sure the police would be radar gunning them much more, to try to bring that number down...why not do the same with people?
Because you get to choose what kind of car you drive, and you implicitly accept the social implications - and the impression you create - by doing so. If you don't like that, you can get a different car, or catch a bus.

You can't really do much about the color of your skin, slant of your eyes, or country of birth though.
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Post by PMWrestler »

Because you get to choose what kind of car you drive, and you implicitly accept the social implications - and the impression you create - by doing so. If you don't like that, you can get a different car, or catch a bus.

You can't really do much about the color of your skin, slant of your eyes, or country of birth though.
yeh, I realize that. The analogy isn't as important as the point that I'm trying to make that if there are statistics that tell you a certain people commit more crimes, then you should be stopping them, and questioning them more.

Because ther is no way that you can stop and search everybody...it's just not possible. But if you target a specific group, then you have a better chance of stopping crime.

Case in point: At my school, as in many schools, drugs are a problem. I live in the suburbs, so it's mostly just pot and other "weak" drugs, but it's still a problem. And out near us, the kids who deal are mostly rich white males. When I dress for school, I dress in a way that makes me look part of this group of people. There's been a few occasions where my friends have either payed me back for something, or I've payed them for something, and money changed hands, and then I was put under close scrutiny by secury guards standing nearby who watched the transaction. And I'm a pretty straight edge kid...I hate drugs to tell you the truth. So it almost embarreses me when I get yelled at and scrutinized and called a liar by these security guards, where as my friends, who run more the t-shirt and jeans types of guys, don't have anything said to them at all. But you know what? If it stops kids from screwing themslves up, and it curbs the drug problem....then I'm all for it.

Racial Profiling-when used correctly, as a tool, and not a means for terror, can be a very affective tool. But it must be used correctly, and I understand there is a thin line between the two. But until we can come up with a system thats better, or people stop commiting crime, it's a tool that we need to use.
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Post by Paladin »

Salvation122 wrote:

"Don't fuck with us. We'll kill you.
Sal, you know why we dropped the bombs on hiroshima and nagasake? Because the estimated death toll of our people was 1million+ soldiers and the Eradication of the Japanese. Complete Genocide.

you know why the cold war ended? Because we developed what is known as a cobalt bomb. something big enough that only one would eradicate all life on earth. All. Even the cockroaches. four would literally destroy our planet. We scared ourselves and the russians into submission. you're right. we are the fucking superpower in the world, but if loose cannons and extremists got hold of such things, there would be no species left to protect. Thats just the reason why we dont use them. and why we dont let any body else use them. watch the Movie War Games with Matthew Broderick. theres a nice bit in there where they play a game called thermonuclear warfare. Computer plays out all possible scenarios and comes up with one of my personal favorite quotes of all time:

"Interesting Game. The only way to win is not to play."

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Post by JohnnyRico »

If twice the number of speeding violations were commited by a certain kind of car, than by all the others combined, I'm sure the police would be radar gunning them much more, to try to bring that number down...
Uhm... Red Mustangs, more often the Convertable(sp?) versions than any others.

Oh, and when PM said
But, these Mid Easterners are also motivated my aggresive Islamic preachings....preachings that disgrace Islam. And somebody on a Jihad can not be reasoned with.
3-2, you knew exactly what he was talking about. This was a rather large topic of conversation in V0.2 at one point. The Islamic Mid Easterners in Question are those like the Al Quieda (I couldn't care less how it's actually spelled if it's wrong) and these other Militant Islamics that have perverted the words of the Koran farther than any Bible-Like material should. Now, with my $.02 in, I'm going to sleep.
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Post by Paladin »

The Islamic Mid Easterners in Question are those like the Al Quieda (I couldn't care less how it's actually spelled if it's wrong) and these other Militant Islamics that have perverted the words of the Koran farther than any Bible-Like material should.
If I remember correctly, christendom did have this thing called the crusades where, if I remember correctly, they went TO the middle east to capture the holy land because it was being held by a civilization of Infidels called the turks, who just happened to be moorish. If I remember correctly as well, that was also in the name of god. hmm... crusade... jihad... I dont see much difference there. And what were these things called the spanish inquisitions...

Just remember that these "Islamic Mid Easterners" are not the first ones to do such things. Righteousness is next to ignorance, which, if I got the gist of this place, is something that bulldrek is completely against. christianity havs committed more atrocities in its time than the entire islamic faith. None of us want to think about that because the bulk of us live in the US, a society built where christianity is a good thing.
Racial Profiling-when used correctly, as a tool, and not a means for terror, can be a very affective tool. But it must be used correctly, and I understand there is a thin line between the two. But until we can come up with a system thats better, or people stop commiting crime, it's a tool that we need to use.
Do any of us actually think that humanity will ever evolve beyond its current point so that tool might be used effectively? Be realistic about this one. And do you think that those profiled against, will be less offended by it even then? "A person is smart. People are dumb, stupid and Panicky." You may realize and accept the generalization, but other, less intelligent people will not. I hate to be so cynical, especially with the handle I carry, but I Accept this society and this world for what it is. I dont like it, and do my damndest to change it, but I know what it is. We are stupid naive romantics to think that we will get anywhere in this world by looking out for anybody else but number one. at least first. if you help those who provide something for you, that may prove beneficial somewhere down the line, but every dollar you give to amnesty international, every red cent you give is one that you will wish you had somewhere later down the line. The trick is to decide where and when you'll accept that, and draw your line there. I saw in one of the other forums or threads or whatever somewhere that somebody said heinlen wrote to a male 15 year old science fiction fan with a streak of naievete. I've met alot of engineers who are ex-military, one of whom, a nam vet, started out as a buck private-retired a LT. colonel cause he didnt want to be promoted, another an ex-corporal 'nam vet who directed artillery and was one of four men who came back from his unit out of the 13 he graduated with. Those and more still read heinlen, and (getting back to my original point) subscribe to his ideals. several in particular stick out in my head regarding this whole thread:

"Never appeal to a man's better nature. he may not have one. Appealing to his self-intrest gives you more leverage."

"Sin lies only in hurting other people unncessarily. All other "sins" are invented nonsense."

"Tilting at windmills hurts you more than the windmill." All the same, would somebody please hand me my lance?

"Does history record _ANY_ case in which the majority was right?"

"There is no such thing as 'Social Gambling'. Either you're there to cut the other blokes heart out and eat it- or your a sucker. If you dont like this choice, dont gamble."

"History does not record anywhere at anytime a religion that has any rational basis. Religion is a crutch for people not strong enough to stand up to the unknown without help. But, like dandruff, most people do have a religion and spend time and money on it and seem to derive considerable pleasure from fiddling with it."

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent- says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing that I have a /wonderful/ bargain for you. no checks please. cash in small bills."

"Political tags -- such as communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative and so on are never basic criteria. The human race devides politically into those who want people to be controlled, and those who have no such desire. The former are idealists acting from highest motives for the greatest good of the greatest number. the latter are surly curmudgeons, suspicious and lacking in altruism. But they are the more comfortable neighbors of the two."

and finally:

"If the universe has any purpose greater than topping a woman you love and making a baby with her hearty help I havent found it."

THank you. and good night.
I leave you to your thoughts.

Paladin[/quote]
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Post by Serious Paul »

Now this is fun.

I did want to say that I feel Paladin did nail on ething down. The use of atomic weapons isn Japan is a moot point. Has Japan declared war since? Have Japanese terrorist cells hijacked planes and attempted to crash them into the Hollywood bowl? Have Americans died fighting a war in Japan since?

I'll agree with 3278, that in a perfect or ideal world, reason would dictate that we come to some sort of reasonable understanding.

"You guys like this, we like this, so we'll both stay in our own lawns."

This is not however that perfect reasonable world. Extremist on both sides don't want to understand each other, any more than say the Nazis wanted to understand the jews during the holocaust. Both sides want blood.

I can't say that I blame them. War is hell. But it is war, and wars are either won or lost. Either or. No tie. No draw. None of that.

It is great some of you feel the need to perserve human life. Wonderful. I do not think your concerns in this matter are justified or in the right mind frame. How would any of you reacted to world war two? War is death.

I see no other reasonable alternative to force.I am obviously not alone.
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Post by Serious Paul »

Oh and I am impressed, no one has resorted to calling names yet. Very impressive people.Nice to see well thought out and courteous debate.

And just to be safe, I'll call the first name: 32 is a mad bomber! Nuclear Nerd! Heh. there its out of our system. Lets get it on.
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Post by Bishop »

The only problem with force, (at least that I see in this situation), is that I think it is going to get us locked into a nasty circle. We do the things we did; politically, economically, militarily, religiously....they do the things they do....condemn us for it, blow up our buildings, kill thousands of innocents in the name of God. So we go over and kill more of them. It just doesn't make any sense to me. That's not saying I don't agree with up to a point...I want Bin Laden dead. End of story. The most important reason being he killed thousands of my countrymen. And that's a vital point to me. But I think, maybe, after that, we should try 32's (and Spiral's) ideas on compromise and negotiation. It only makes the more sense. "We cut off your head. We beat the everliving piss out of you. We had our vengenance...you had yours. Now let's find a way out that doesn't kill millions more people, aiight?"
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Post by PMWrestler »

I think we all do Bishop. I'm not a big fan of bombing someone for nothing. But we need to show them that we aren't to be screwed with. During the bombings, or after the bombings, we tell them that hey, we can be pretty nice guys if you get to know us. And that we'll rebuild your economy, and provide you massive amounts of aid, if you give in, and fully cooperate with us in the hunt for bin laden, and the war against terrorism.
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Post by Bishop »

. But we need to show them that we aren't to be screwed with.

We did that at the end of WWII. These people didn't care that we were going to come kick their ass...they knew the consequences. What it comes down to is why? Why did they do it? Are we (Americans) really that contemptous, and hateable?
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Post by JohnnyRico »

Image


[edit] Got it fixed
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Post by Bishop »

Ya know, I actually like pictures like that. They make me wanna go break something. But ya know, this isn't actually what I see as a war. This is like me beating up a 12 year old. Sure..he could hit me. Once or twice. I might even feel it. But if I decide to, I can do pretty much whatever I want to him. I would want to ask why he's attacking me, what I can do or say that would maybe make him stop. Beating up on 12 year olds, (or Afghanistan) doesn't really prove anything. I agree with getting Bin Laden. But damn....does that require us to just go around beating up everybody else?
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Post by Marius »

Why would we want to prove anything? Proving something doesn't make it so, it just explains what already is.

As a number of Islamist zealots recently learned, war is not about proving things to other people.
There is then a need to guard against a temptation to overstate the economic evils of our own age, and to ignore the existence of similar, or worse, evils in earlier ages. Even though some exaggeration may, for the time, stimulate others, as well as ourselves, to a more intense resolve that the present evils should no longer exist, but it is not less wrong and generally it is much more foolish to palter with truth for good than for a selfish cause. The pessimistic descriptions of our own age, combined with the romantic exaggeration of the happiness of past ages must tend to setting aside the methods of progress, the work of which, if slow, is yet solid, and lead to the hasty adoption of others of greater promise, but which resemble the potent medicines of a charlatan, and while quickly effecting a little good sow the seeds of widespread and lasting decay. This impatient insincerity is an evil only less great than the moral torpor which can endure, that we with our modern resources and knowledge should look contentedly at the continued destruction of all that is worth having. There is an evil and an extreme impatience as well as an extreme patience with social ills.
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Post by Paladin »

"You can have Peace or you can have freedom, you can't have both."

I'm tellin ya, heinlen was a smart guy. but anyway. I agree with Bishop. I want bin laden dead. I think that there are people in the world who are evil and deserve nothing more than a bullet through the cerebral cortex. and there is logic to making a point. However, you have to be willing to rip the other guys throat out. If I beat up a 12 year old, he'll just get his other 12 year friends and eventually they will be able to overtake me. however, if I go to lengths that they cannot possibly go, I have placed the entirety of them in checkmate.

Everything depends upon the lengths to which you are willing to go. and that is really what this entire thread has been about. how far is each of us willing to go.

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Post by 3278 »

Paladin wrote:Everything depends upon the lengths to which you are willing to go. and that is really what this entire thread has been about. how far is each of us willing to go.
Actually, I don't think it is. I think it's about how far each of us thinks we should go. To say that it's about how far each person is willing to go is to imply that we should be willing to go as far as possible, which isn't true. We should remember that you can go too far.

I'm probably over-reacting to the implications of your sentence because I'm still a little uncomfortable with my newfound apparent role as the voice of moderation. Normally, I'm the guy advocating the neutron bomb.
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Post by JohnnyRico »

3278 wrote: Normally, I'm the guy advocating the neutron bomb.
If it works....
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Post by 3278 »

JohnnyRico wrote:
3278 wrote: Normally, I'm the guy advocating the neutron bomb.
If it works....
Oh, it works. It's just unacceptable from a moral and logistical standpoint.
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Post by JohnnyRico »

Now the question becomes "Whose Moral Standard?" Since you said that you are normally the proponent for using the damn thing, then it isn't your standard that we would be going against in using it. Right?
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Post by 3278 »

JohnnyRico wrote: Now the question becomes "Whose Moral Standard?" Since you said that you are normally the proponent for using the damn thing, then it isn't your standard that we would be going against in using it. Right?
Oh, yeah. That's a toughy. See, I'm all for killing the whole world except for the people I like. The problem with that is, it feels a little wrong. Would you think it'd be bad for me to commit genocide?
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Post by Bishop »

I was trying to prove my opinion that i don't think of this as a war. This is a country with almost infinitely more superior firepower, technology, and in many ways training. The only thing we don't have a clear advantage in is determination. Hell, what we're doing to them was over before it begun. Hence the "me against the 12 year old allusion."

I'm all for what we did. I want to know why, what makes America so contemptous, tha t against all intelligent reasoning, they stole 3 or 4 planes and drove them into the two tallest buildings in the world. It can't just be our arrogance, ignorance, and power. Or is it?
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Post by voz »

After reading this whole thread I wonder if any of the blood lust people are old enough to join the military? Are they mentally tough enough to join a unit were combat is a reality, not a crap shoot?

Have any of you blood lusting guys every shot a living creature? Have you ever been shot at?

Nuking Afganistan is not the answer. Nuking Lebenon is not the answer. You need to find the leaders. They are tucked away so bombs are fairly harmless.

The Military pays all of that money not for the bomb itself, but for the delivery and guidance systems.

As to being to close to what happened since 9/11. My nieghborhood has had people die in the pentagon, on one of the flights and one couple had their son buried as result of operation anaconda a few weeks ago. My kid's school on 9/11 had a kid whose parent's never picked him up, and he is now an orphan.

Several nations (without consent) use the US currency as their currency. That screws up the money supply, but that is what happens when you arte the biggest. Short of revolution the US is powereless to do anything. The EU has a much bigger economy than the US does.

Just realize, while it is real manly to spout how the US should nuke/kill other countries. You really should understand what is necessary to do what you say. Otherwise you sound like a complete idiot.
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Post by Bishop »

Oh, yeah. That's a toughy. See, I'm all for killing the whole world except for the people I like. The problem with that is, it feels a little wrong. Would you think it'd be bad for me to commit genocide?
As long as I'm one of the ones you like no. ;)
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Post by 3278 »

Bish, have you seen Isaac and Ishmael?* If not, you should come over some time and see it. There's a /lot/ of it that speaks to what you're talking about.

I'm still looking for a transcript of it so Flame can read it. There's no CC on my recording of it, so watching it won't do him any good. If I find a transcript, I'll link to it, and everyone can read it. It's incredibly good, and has a lot of very relavant points. Plus, I think it'd likely start several fights over some of the points it makes which some people might not agree with, which is the whole point of the show in the first damned place. :)

*For those who don't know, Isaac and Ishmael was the season opener to this year's season of the West Wing. It was written and filmed after September 11, and aired in place of the actual season premiere.
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Post by Salvation122 »

3278 wrote: Ah, yes. I recall that. You do recall that most of the people saying we need to be nice to them weren't American, right?
No, not really. I remember that many were foreign; however, I do remember Lektro, Flame, Cash, Marius (back and forth), Scamp (I think), and Thorn (I think) joining in on the Be Nice to the Poor Little Afghanis bandwagon. For a while there it was you and me and Marius saying "Fuck 'em."
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Post by Salvation122 »

3278 wrote: Exactly. Islamic Extremism is to Islam as the KKK is to Christianity.
Islamic Extremism is to Islam as the KKK^10 is to Christianity, I would say, considering that the KKK was pretty nonviolent for the first fifty years of its existence and has caused far less bloodshed.
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Post by TheScamp »

Just to be clear, I was not advocating that we 'be nice' to the Afghani prisoners just because I think we shouldn't be mean. I was advocating it, because I believe that it's specifically required by the Geneva Convention.
Islamic Extremism is to Islam as the KKK^10 is to Christianity, I would say, considering that the KKK was pretty nonviolent for the first fifty years of its existence and has caused far less bloodshed.

Yes. So nonviolent that in 1871 (only 6 years or so after their founding) their shenanigans inspired one of the Reconstruction Acts of the Force Bill, which allowed the President to use federal troops against them.

After that, they couldn't be violent, because the army could (and did) come in and kick the crap out of them if they tried.
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Post by Salvation122 »

Because they were impeding the right of blacks to vote, not because they were killing people. Nathan Bedford Forest actually officially dissolved the klan in, uh, 1869, I think, because he disagreed with the violent actions being taken against blacks. (That year could very easily be wrong; the more I think about it, the more I think that it was the year it was founded.) The klan was originally created to preserve the power of the Democratic party in the south by scaring blacks - who overwhelmingly voted Repbulican - away from the polls. (It expanded later, particularly during the imigration boom before World War I, but that's not really relavent to your point.)

That said, this isn't really the place for a debate about the nature of the Klan, which this will probably lead to; I'd be happy to discuss it in another thread, if someone wants to create it.
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Post by TheScamp »

Because they were impeding the right of blacks to vote...

With ice cream and lollipops.
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Post by Lektrogirl »

voz
The EU has a much bigger economy than the US does.
The EU has more citizens within it's borders, but it doesn't have a larger economy, people in America spend their money, hell they spend money they don't even have, thus creating a larger economy than what you find in the EU.
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No, not really. I remember that many were foreign; however, I do remember Lektro, Flame, Cash, Marius (back and forth), Scamp (I think), and Thorn (I think) joining in on the Be Nice to the Poor Little Afghanis bandwagon. For a while there it was you and me and Marius saying "Fuck 'em."
Well, at least I'm first on your list of misunderstandings!!! My point about the entire Afghanistan issue was that if America was (at the time) going to do something they should go after ONLY those people who are responsible for September 11th.

CNN reported that by some estimates there have been 4,000 innocent civilians killed by America's bombing of Afghanistan, a couple of other reports put the total higher, around 5,000 to 6,000 total. These people are those "poor little Afghanistanis" I feared would be hurt.

I still do not condone what America has done there, no amount of heartache, pain, or destruction validates the bombing of a country where most of it's citizens didn't even know there was a place called New York city.

How many of these "poor little Afghanistanis" do you think took part in what happened on Seltember 11th? how many do you think supported the Taliban?

As for the Afghanstani prisoners in cuba, no I do not think they should be treated inhumanely, I won't apologize for my belief that people should not be tortured either. Let the American government build a case against these men in a court of law (civil, military, other) and try them, then if they are found to be guilty imprison them for life. If needed, interrogate them for information, use drugs if that's what it takes to make sure the information is correct, but don't torture them.

Standing by one's principles is difficult sometimes, but if America is to remain a land of freedom as Americans proclaim it to be then you cannot go around violating the basic principles of a civilized society, which includes among other things "not torturing people". Don't forget, if you condone torture on these prisoners what is to stop your government from one day accusing you of something and torturing you?

In a free society, if there is one man who does not enjoy the basic freedoms that every man in that society is entitled to than no one in that society should think that their freedoms are guaranteed.
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Post by Marius »

CNN reported that by some estimates there have been 4,000 innocent civilians killed by America's bombing of Afghanistan, a couple of other reports put the total higher, around 5,000 to 6,000 total. These people are those "poor little Afghanistanis" I feared would be hurt.
CNN is absolutely, without question, full of shit. The best unbiased estimates put the number of civilian dead at not much more than 100. If I have time I'll look for my reference on that.
There is then a need to guard against a temptation to overstate the economic evils of our own age, and to ignore the existence of similar, or worse, evils in earlier ages. Even though some exaggeration may, for the time, stimulate others, as well as ourselves, to a more intense resolve that the present evils should no longer exist, but it is not less wrong and generally it is much more foolish to palter with truth for good than for a selfish cause. The pessimistic descriptions of our own age, combined with the romantic exaggeration of the happiness of past ages must tend to setting aside the methods of progress, the work of which, if slow, is yet solid, and lead to the hasty adoption of others of greater promise, but which resemble the potent medicines of a charlatan, and while quickly effecting a little good sow the seeds of widespread and lasting decay. This impatient insincerity is an evil only less great than the moral torpor which can endure, that we with our modern resources and knowledge should look contentedly at the continued destruction of all that is worth having. There is an evil and an extreme impatience as well as an extreme patience with social ills.
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Post by Lektrogirl »

Marius wrote:
CNN reported that by some estimates there have been 4,000 innocent civilians killed by America's bombing of Afghanistan, a couple of other reports put the total higher, around 5,000 to 6,000 total. These people are those "poor little Afghanistanis" I feared would be hurt.
CNN is absolutely, without question, full of shit. The best unbiased estimates put the number of civilian dead at not much more than 100. If I have time I'll look for my reference on that.
You can't possibly believe that, can you? 100? In a war?

http://www.fair.org/activism/afghanista ... lties.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/ ... 740538.stm

http://www.cursor.org/stories/ontarget.htm

http://www.onlinejournal.com/Commentary ... 10302.html

http://www.cursor.org/stories/civpertons.htm
Last edited by Lektrogirl on Mon Mar 25, 2002 9:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by TheScamp »

It's hard to believe that any activist site is going to actually be fair and impartial. Especially considering that they're, you know, activisits?
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Post by Marius »

Yeah, I do believe it. 100. In a war. In a war fought mainly in uninhabited mountains. In bombing campaigns that used only multimillion dollar precision-targeted munitions exclusively on military targets that were merely /near/ major cities. Yes, I believe that relatively few civilians were killed.
There is then a need to guard against a temptation to overstate the economic evils of our own age, and to ignore the existence of similar, or worse, evils in earlier ages. Even though some exaggeration may, for the time, stimulate others, as well as ourselves, to a more intense resolve that the present evils should no longer exist, but it is not less wrong and generally it is much more foolish to palter with truth for good than for a selfish cause. The pessimistic descriptions of our own age, combined with the romantic exaggeration of the happiness of past ages must tend to setting aside the methods of progress, the work of which, if slow, is yet solid, and lead to the hasty adoption of others of greater promise, but which resemble the potent medicines of a charlatan, and while quickly effecting a little good sow the seeds of widespread and lasting decay. This impatient insincerity is an evil only less great than the moral torpor which can endure, that we with our modern resources and knowledge should look contentedly at the continued destruction of all that is worth having. There is an evil and an extreme impatience as well as an extreme patience with social ills.
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Post by Lektrogirl »

Well, I tell you what, find a link that suggests that the civilian deaths were limited to 100, please.
The best unbiased estimates put the number of civilian dead at not much more than 100.
Would these "unbiased" estimates be from..... hmmmm... maybe the American military perhaps? <sarcasm>I would consider them to be totally unbiased.</sarcasm>
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Post by Marius »

..
Last edited by Marius on Mon Mar 25, 2002 9:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There is then a need to guard against a temptation to overstate the economic evils of our own age, and to ignore the existence of similar, or worse, evils in earlier ages. Even though some exaggeration may, for the time, stimulate others, as well as ourselves, to a more intense resolve that the present evils should no longer exist, but it is not less wrong and generally it is much more foolish to palter with truth for good than for a selfish cause. The pessimistic descriptions of our own age, combined with the romantic exaggeration of the happiness of past ages must tend to setting aside the methods of progress, the work of which, if slow, is yet solid, and lead to the hasty adoption of others of greater promise, but which resemble the potent medicines of a charlatan, and while quickly effecting a little good sow the seeds of widespread and lasting decay. This impatient insincerity is an evil only less great than the moral torpor which can endure, that we with our modern resources and knowledge should look contentedly at the continued destruction of all that is worth having. There is an evil and an extreme impatience as well as an extreme patience with social ills.
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Post by Marius »

No, actually IIRC it was the Red Cross.

My source is an article printed in the Washington Post (not exactly a fringe media source) on February 11, 2002. Their website doesn't seem to have it up anymore, but I'm sure you could find it in a library.
There is then a need to guard against a temptation to overstate the economic evils of our own age, and to ignore the existence of similar, or worse, evils in earlier ages. Even though some exaggeration may, for the time, stimulate others, as well as ourselves, to a more intense resolve that the present evils should no longer exist, but it is not less wrong and generally it is much more foolish to palter with truth for good than for a selfish cause. The pessimistic descriptions of our own age, combined with the romantic exaggeration of the happiness of past ages must tend to setting aside the methods of progress, the work of which, if slow, is yet solid, and lead to the hasty adoption of others of greater promise, but which resemble the potent medicines of a charlatan, and while quickly effecting a little good sow the seeds of widespread and lasting decay. This impatient insincerity is an evil only less great than the moral torpor which can endure, that we with our modern resources and knowledge should look contentedly at the continued destruction of all that is worth having. There is an evil and an extreme impatience as well as an extreme patience with social ills.
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Post by Lektrogirl »

Well, I just searched the Washington Posts archives using the following keywords "Deaths Killed Civilian Civilians Afghanistan" and couldn't find the article you were referring to, can you help me find it? The Washington Post has a fantastic search function, you can find EVERY article it has printed in the last three calendar years.

http://www.tbwt.com/views/specialrpt/sp ... t_0166.asp
Professor Marc Herold of the University of New Hampshire, who has been keeping a rough tally of killings based on media and other reports, has estimated a total of more than 4,000 civilian deaths since the beginning of the air attacks against Afghanistan in October.
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Post by TheScamp »

Lektro, I'd just like to point out that all but the first article you posted are from one source; Mark Herold, a professor of Economics and Women's Studies at UNH. They're either written directly by him, or are specifically about his figures.
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