Bill Cosby Speaks Out

[TLM]

mooky, you are correct that all voices on an issue are not equal. That is where the problem lies. If a white man cannot give constructive criticism to a black man, or if a black man cannot give constructive criticism to a white man, then there is still a serious race issue that needs to be adressed. (replace a race with any other race, I dont feel like typing them all out.)

I couldn't agree more with you here, Chopper, though I think Thorn's closer. But the way I see it, you're all falling into a bit of a... I can't think of a good wording, so I'll just go with "cul-de-sac".

The problem, as I see it, isn't about black kids being brought up in poor neighbourhods, or about white kids being brought up in poor neighbourhoods. Nor is it about some black men beating on their wives or white men beating on their wives. The problem here is quite simply that some kids are being brought up poorly in poor neighbourhoods, and some men beating their wives. The moment you say "black" or "white" man, you are creating an artificial boundry between them. All men are created equal. If you want to take the problem by the root, people have got to stop thinking "it's a black problem/it's a black cultural thing", because it isn't. These are problems that can and will affect the whole community irrespective of something as shallow as skin-color.

There are plenty of people out there who need to get their heads out of their asses and do something with their lives, get jobs, bring their kids up properly, etc. And it is not racist to point out that some of these people happen to have dark skin, anymore than it is racist to point out that some of them have white skin.

The quicker people can actually fucking stop saying "black" and "white" as if it meant something and just say "man", the quicker you can get the problem solved. For EVERYONE.

[Salvation122]

Wherein Sal spins a tangent with people pissed at him:

3278:

Yeah, but I don't like him. Is it okay if I'm not always nice to people I don't like?

Of course not. I am very, very rarely nice to people I don't like. But I do try to at least be respectful, and I expect others - particularly those I consider friends - to do so as well. That's what your second response to Deev in this thread lacked. (Your first was, in my oh-so-humble opinion, fine, for the record.)

And I /don't/ think he's right in this case, which is why I disagreed with him. It's amusing that /I'm/ the one being "snarky" when I quote a reply of his that no one considered "snarky." I appreciate your trying to be my conscience, but the simple fact of the matter is, I'm going to treat people the way I think they deserve to be treated, and DV8, in my opinion, deserves to be treated with snarkyness, for many reasons, not the least of which is the manner in which he treats me, which you've only condemned when you've soundly placed the guilt on both of us.

Of course I placed the guilt on both of you; you were both being assholes. His "Or not," was just as snarky and unnecessary as yours. Two wrongs and whatnot, unless they involve physical violence.

I'm pretty tired of stupid people being stupid, and no one calling them on it, while I'm an asshole for saying true things in a manner people don't like to hear.

Point 1: Saying things in an unnecessarilly rude/offensive manner is sort of the definition of an asshole, regardless of the veracity of the statement. Finding the girl who gave me such hell first semester and telling her new boyfriend she's a slut would make me an asshole, even though it's true, and I'd probably get the shit knocked out of me. Such is life.

In general, I do not find your manner unnecessarilly rude or offensive, though you are somewhat brusque (extended conversations with Cain being the obvious exception.)

Point 2: Deev ain't stupid. He's probably overly defensive, but given how much you and I and, on occaision, Marius, slapped everything he said down, I'd say it's warranted. An unwillingness to converse with someone who you know is just going to attack whatever you say isn't stupidity, it's common sense.

I know you guys have some personal issues and history that occured off-board, things which have led to a mutual lack of respect. And, hey, that's cool. I don't know what happened (although it's not particularly hard to guess the rough outlines) and it's really not my place to tell you that said lack is unjustified. However, I do expect people here to treat each other with a modicum of dignity. I said much the same thing when people were endlessly bitching at Ancient and Evan, trying to drive them away; I see no compelling reason not to do so when you're acting similarly to Deev.

(And, yes, I know, I did the same thing with Cain, though not until he started pi-ing.)

Liniah:

Ok, if that's not clear enough, I'll elaborate.

Yeah, see, it isn't. Because you're exactly what 32 was talking about: had I said "We should end Affirmative Action, and tough luck to blacks that can't get a job without because they're uneducated," I have absolutely no doubt that you'd have roundly lambasted me for it (or remained silent and thought I was an insensitive fool.) I remember you loudly complaining about the military recruitment process aiming at inner-city black kids, a place which will educate you, will instill discipline and will employ you (and aid you in finding employment after your term is up.) When you applaud Cosby for telling blacks to quit blaming The Man and to find a way, and then get upset at the government for both providing a way and making that fact known to the people who need it, well, I have difficulty believing that you'd tell Average White Guy that they "kick ass" for saying the same things Cosby said.

[Cain]

Yeah, see, it isn't. Because you're exactly what 32 was talking about: had I said "We should end Affirmative Action, and tough luck to blacks that can't get a job without because they're uneducated," I have absolutely no doubt that you'd have roundly lambasted me for it (or remained silent and thought I was an insensitive fool.) I remember you loudly complaining about the military recruitment process aiming at inner-city black kids, a place which will educate you, will instill discipline and will employ you (and aid you in finding employment after your term is up.) When you applaud Cosby for telling blacks to quit blaming The Man and to find a way, and then get upset at the government for both providing a way and making that fact known to the people who need it, well, I have difficulty believing that you'd tell Average White Guy that they "kick ass" for saying the same things Cosby said.

First of all, you have no idea what it means to "End Affirmative Action". To actually end it would involve repealing all the civil rights laws. You're whining about quota programs, which aren't nearly the issue you seem to think they are. With only a few isolated cases, best handled individually, discrimination against whites appears to be very rare.

Second, the military is famous for promising you certain training, certain benefits, and so on-- and then not delivering on them. Just look at the furor over veteran's benefits for proof of that.

Finally, if you're an example of "Average White Guy", the problem is that you'd go way the hell too far. As exemplified by your comment about ending Affirmative action-- it shows that you're speaking from ignorance of the issue. Cosby knows the realities much better than you do, and has qualified his statements much better.

[Salvation122]

Yeah, except that none of that has much bearing at all on anything I said, because it is, respectively, false, overstated, and untrue.

[Adam]

I'm sure that made sense in your head. On my monitor, it doesn't appear to mean much of anything - the context has been lost.

[crone]

I think it goes:

First of all, you have no idea what it means to "End Affirmative Action". To actually end it would involve repealing all the civil rights laws. You're whining about quota programs, which aren't nearly the issue you seem to think they are. With only a few isolated cases, best handled individually, discrimination against whites appears to be very rare.

False

Second, the military is famous for promising you certain training, certain benefits, and so on-- and then not delivering on them. Just look at the furor over veteran's benefits for proof of that.

Overstated

Finally, if you're an example of "Average White Guy", the problem is that you'd go way the hell too far. As exemplified by your comment about ending Affirmative action-- it shows that you're speaking from ignorance of the issue. Cosby knows the realities much better than you do, and has qualified his statements much better.

Untrue

[Cain]

Actually, point 1 is quite true. "Affirmative Action" refers to an executive order, signed by President Johnson, stating that we will "Take affirmative action" to end discrimination. We won't be content with passive measures, we will take active and positive steps to correct the situation. I don't think anyone here has any issues with that. Bill Cosby is calling out for *more* affirmative action; he's telling blacks to not sit back and passively let the situation change, he's telling them to go out and take positive, affirmative actions to improve their situation.

The problem is that most people confuse the Civil Rights laws and the executive orders with "Quota programs", which are already illegal except under very strict conditions-- namely, they have to be judically imposed as a penalty for a history of discrimination.

Point two is somewhat overstated. I'm given to understand that the GI education bill does pay out on a regular basis. However, I've known more than a few veterans who've had issues with GI home loans and medical coverage. The fact that there *is* a huge furor over veteran's benefits means that there's a whole lot of veterans complaing about the military not delivering on certain promises.

Point 3 should have read: "Finally, if you're an example of 'Average White Guy', the problem is that you've gone way the hell too far."

[Kai]

Honestly I think the reaction is more that someone who will be listened to spoke out in seemingly against the common perception. What would be more deserving of respect from you, some random person from DSF criticizing Bulldrek or one of the regulars? Its harder to brush off someone you relate to and respect's comments when they say something you don't agree with than a random person you hardly know.

[3278]

First of all, you have no idea what it means to "End Affirmative Action". To actually end it would involve repealing all the civil rights laws.

You know that's not what he means. When people talk about "affirmative action," they don't mean "all the civil rights laws." You like to bring this up because it was pointed out to you in one of your recent classes that "affirmative action" was originally used in the executive order, but common usage of the term, in the language we all share, means quota programs and other unfair racist practices. I don't think we all need to have this same discussion all over again.

Sal doesn't want to end civil rights programs that provide equality for persons of all races; in fact, he is in favor of ending those - as I am - which do not provide equality of opportunity. The difference of opinion here is in which programs provide equality: you believe "affirmative action" - in the common usage - provides equality by leveling an unbalanced playing field. Sal - and myself - do not.

We can all go round and round about the definition of the term, or we can talk about the issue. You pick.

[Liniah]

Liniah:

Yeah, see, it isn't. Because you're exactly what 32 was talking about: had I said "We should end Affirmative Action, and tough luck to blacks that can't get a job without because they're uneducated," I have absolutely no doubt that you'd have roundly lambasted me for it (or remained silent and thought I was an insensitive fool.) I remember you loudly complaining about the military recruitment process aiming at inner-city black kids, a place which will educate you, will instill discipline and will employ you (and aid you in finding employment after your term is up.) When you applaud Cosby for telling blacks to quit blaming The Man and to find a way, and then get upset at the government for both providing a way and making that fact known to the people who need it, well, I have difficulty believing that you'd tell Average White Guy that they "kick ass" for saying the same things Cosby said.

Fuck that. Fuck. That. You should have fucking doubts of what I would have said because I wasn't asked. My number one problem with Bulldrek is people putting words into my mouth instead of finding out what I actually think. I'll be happy to tell you what I think, and I'd much rather you ask than assume. How do you know how I feel about affirmative action? Have I said so? Do you know? Or is this another one of those 'oh, well Lin is in that group, so...'?

[Cain]

You know that's not what he means. When people talk about "affirmative action," they don't mean "all the civil rights laws." You like to bring this up because it was pointed out to you in one of your recent classes that "affirmative action" was originally used in the executive order, but common usage of the term, in the language we all share, means quota programs and other unfair racist practices. I don't think we all need to have this same discussion all over again.

And if you'd read the next sentence, you would have realized I acknowledged as much. Plus the fact that I demonstrated that quota programs are generally illegal to begin with, which pretty much renders your point moot.

The difference here is, Cosby isn't calling for an end to Affirmative Action-- only people who are ignorant of the real issues and underlying laws call for that. He's calling for black people to take affirmative action, in both the old and new sense of the word.

[3278]

And if you'd read the next sentence, you would have realized I acknowledged as much.

I /did/ read the next sentence, and strangely, I did not realize that when you said "confused," you meant, "have changed the meaning in common usage."

Plus the fact that I demonstrated that quota programs are generally illegal to begin with, which pretty much renders your point moot.

You didn't, they still exist, I mentioned programs other than quotas, so it's not.

[Cain]

You didn't, they still exist, I mentioned programs other than quotas, so it's not.

*sigh* Do you really want to have this out again? I can demonstrate, quite easily, that quota programs are generally illegal-- and the other programs you mention can be shown to be a compensatory effect for existing bias. Perhaps not well-calibrated, but they're an attempt to bring equality.

[3278]

You didn't, they still exist, I mentioned programs other than quotas, so it's not.

*sigh* Do you really want to have this out again?

No, but apparently you do.

I can demonstrate, quite easily...

You didn't.

...that quota programs are generally illegal...

They still exist.

...and the other programs you mention can be shown to be a compensatory effect for existing bias. Perhaps not well-calibrated, but they're an attempt to bring equality.

And isn't that what I said? "The difference of opinion here is in which programs provide equality: you believe "affirmative action" - in the common usage - provides equality by leveling an unbalanced playing field. Sal - and myself - do not."

[Cain]

They still exist.

Technically, so does polio. In a lab somewhere, there's one or two specimens left. Otherwise, it's pretty much eradicated.

Just because something exists doesn't mean it's a real problem.

And isn't that what I said? "The difference of opinion here is in which programs provide equality: you believe "affirmative action" - in the common usage - provides equality by leveling an unbalanced playing field. Sal - and myself - do not."

The difference here is that I can demonstrate that the field is indeed unbalanced. I'll concede that the tools being used are very inexact, but it is not a matter of opinion-- it's a matter of proveable evidence.

[3278]

They still exist.

Technically, so does polio. In a lab somewhere, there's one or two specimens left. Otherwise, it's pretty much eradicated.

Just because something exists doesn't mean it's a real problem.

The ratio of "polio viruses to other viruses" versus "discrimination against everyone else to discrimination against blacks" is not equal, or comparable. That makes this a poor and inaccurate comparison.

And isn't that what I said? "The difference of opinion here is in which programs provide equality: you believe "affirmative action" - in the common usage - provides equality by leveling an unbalanced playing field. Sal - and myself - do not."

The difference here is that I can demonstrate that the field is indeed unbalanced.

You cannot demonstrate why, however, and therein lies the difference of opinion.

[Cain]

The ratio of "polio viruses to other viruses" versus "discrimination against everyone else to discrimination against blacks" is not equal, or comparable.

New cases of polio per year = less than the standard error, so effectively zero.

Substantiated cases of racial discrimination against whites in USA = less than standard error, so effectively zero.

You cannot demonstrate why, however, and therein lies the difference of opinion.

The scientific standard of proof is very high, yes; so unless I can raise a bunch of children in a lab with proper control groups, I cannot draw any causal conclusions. However, I can draw enough correlations to show that a significant amount of racial bias exists in most whites in the USA. At any event, you don't have to understand why something works to acknolwedge that it does, or come up with general ideas, or experiment further.

[WillyGilligan]

Is there any reason at all to believe that this will go in a new direction? Just a thought, seeing as how you've hit the same place this left off last time minus the tedium of numbers and links (but I hear that sweet bass rumble of the Peterbilt debating machines firing up as we speak).

So, for us keeping score at home, is this a correct version of where we are, at this moment?

- Cain: There is racial inequality in the USA. This racial inequality stems from prejudicial mindsets existing in the upper class (do I hire the black guy or the white guy who looks like me for this job?) The only way to correct this is through massive (though not necessarily intrusive or violent) government intervention. Also, quotas are illegal.

- 3278: You can't combat racism with more racism. Most racial inequality is a function of poverty rather than racism. If you fix poverty, for everyone, you'll fix a lot of the racial inequality. Also, government shouldn't promise an always even playing field, since the playing field is never level, and they should stick to roads and national defence in the first place.

Does that sum up where we are at this point? I'm going from memory here, so I may have missed a point or three. Anyway, it seems to be an idealogical divide concerning where race relations are, root causes of same, the role of government and possibly which is the correct direction to thread one's belt. If that's the case, do we need to go down that road again? Even if it stays civil, I don't see progress being made on either side (progress being where one party or another alters their perception or concedes a point without following it with "but...."). I missed the recent blowup, but perusing the history is preferrable to seeing the second run live, is all I'm sayin'.

Of course I could definitely be wrong. That's cool too.

[3278]

Substantiated cases of racial discrimination against whites in USA = less than standard error, so effectively zero.

Man, that's not even good /math./

At any event, you don't have to understand why something works to acknolwedge that it does, or come up with general ideas, or experiment further.

But you do need to know the causes of racial inequality in this specific case in order to fix it. [Which still leaves open the question of whether or not it is the role of government to fix it in the first place.]

Does that sum up where we are at this point?

It would, if I'd ever stated my opinion so well.

I agree: no progress can possibly be made on this issue. Cain and I hold diametrically opposing views of the role of government, and that essential difference of opinion prevents any possibility of accord on this particular issue.

[Cain]

Man, that's not even good /math./

Do I have to explain the concept of significant digits to you? Tell me, what's the effective and practical weight of an electron?

But you do need to know the causes of racial inequality in this specific case in order to fix it. [Which still leaves open the question of whether or not it is the role of government to fix it in the first place.]

Not really. We don't need to know what caused certain diseases, we only need to know how to treat them. Knowing what caused it helps in formulating a treatment, but frequently you can go off of just symptoms.

And I never suggested that is was specifically the role of government. However, I do suggest that it is a collective responsibility, which therefore requires a collective entity to act.

Does that sum up where we are at this point?

Pretty close on my views. (I don't think it's just a white upper class thing, although it's most dramatic there.) 32's never put his arguments into those terms, so I have no idea what he actually believes anymore. He seems to just enjoy ranting at me.

[FlameBlade]

Wow. This thread is already nowhere.

[Kai]

Eh, 60 to zero in 30 posts or less is starting to be a catchphrase around here for anything that involves something outside personal experience, don't worry about it and learn to skim quickly

[WillyGilligan]

It's not necessarily a dead thread, I just thought we were heading into familiar territory. I thought the discussion on unequal voices was interesting, and it's certainly possible to discuss what specifically Bill Cosby is trying to get at. There are probably a lot of discussions that can get spun off this topic, but it seems to me that if we head straight for the high heather then we will ignore those in favor of having the affirmative action debate. It's sort of like going to a buffet and ignoring the variety in favor of loading up on the one or two foods that give you an allergic reaction.

As for unequal voices, I agree that it sucks that I'm not allowed to comment on non-white american culture without worrying about being labelled a racist. I do however agree that I can hardly be called an expert in the field. Now, what if Eminem (for example) spoke on these issues? He's white, but heavily involved in 'black' culture.

[3278]

Tell me, what's the effective and practical weight of an electron?

Holy crap. That has to be some kind of record.

[MooCow]

As for unequal voices, I agree that it sucks that I'm not allowed to comment on non-white american culture without worrying about being labelled a racist

Embrace your racism Willy. *MooCow hands Willy a white sheet and hood*

White Power!!

[Instant Cash]

Where's our liberals at when this thread gets posted? Hmmm seems to me we're not as liberated as a board as we seem to think....

*raises hand*

Um, I was enjoying my 4th of july weekend?

I totally agree with him, and it is nothing new, this has been stated by many black people, just watch Barbershop

[Cain]

As for unequal voices, I agree that it sucks that I'm not allowed to comment on non-white american culture without worrying about being labelled a racist. I do however agree that I can hardly be called an expert in the field. Now, what if Eminem (for example) spoke on these issues? He's white, but heavily involved in 'black' culture.

Any time someone makes a charged comment, someone else is bound to complain. The fact is, however, that Bill Cosby is well-respected within the black community.

Holy crap. That has to be some kind of record.

Two posts before you started professing ignorance to basic science and math? Nah, you've gone much faster than that....

[3278]

Yes, I am certainly ignorant of the "weight" of an electron. You're so dumb sometimes.

[lorg]

Still have not found or seen a transcript of what he said but gathering from various news pieces about it I would say it does appear he said that black people should stop blaiming others (read white folks) when something doesn't work or go as planed. Well bu fucking hu if you don't agree with that.

[lordhellion]

Gives mad props to WillyGilligan for his earlier post attempting to make the bickering into something we could follow.

Cain, I appreciate the liberal support, but if you can't argue outside of junior high level, take a breather--we don't want the help.

32's "record" comment, I believe is a reference to how off-topic your arguement is getting. What the bloody hell does the weight of an electron have to do with race relations in America? A debate stays on topic, and a web debate has the ability to hit google real quick like and pull up references, and give the opponent a chance to investigate and form a rebuttle.

Attacking an individual does not invalidate thier opinion or thier arguement. Hell, that's the same tactic that creationists and Holocaust deniers have been using for decades. It just make the attacker look as though they're grasping at straws.

[Cain]

[lorg]