Bulldrek v3.0

Are the books so ambiguous about the fate of Rhaego? Everything in the series happens off-camera, and is only described by an unreliable witness.

The show quoted the book word for word for that entire scene..

Martin should write comic books: Syrio, Rhaego, Benjen, there must be more. Pretty unequivocal about Eddard, I suppose. And Drogo. Viserys could recover in secret, right? Like Dobson in the Firefly pilot?

I think it's funny how much is made by various people [in the books] about how all the Targaryens are dead, and how obsessed various people [say, King Robert] are with making sure they're all dead, when in fact there are at least two [besides Daenerys and Viserys] remaining, one of whom everyone kind of knows is a Targaryen but seems to have forgotten!

Who besides Aemon? He'd be easy to forget, I think, being amiable and at the Wall for so long.

I just started reading A Clash of Kings.

I suspect that 32 put some clues together to come to the same general consensus as the fandom.

Speculative spoilers:
It is generally assumed, based on a story in Book 3, that Jon Snow is the child of Lyanna and Rhaegar. There are a lot of indications that they ran away together, not that Lyanna was kidnapped, but the Tourney at Harenhall story in book 3 pretty much seals it.

Aemon isn't really considered because he already turned down the regency when it was offered to him, and because family affiliations are wiped when you join the Night's Watch. It's also entirely possible that Robert was unaware that Aemon was a Targaryen; it's not something Aemon advertises, he's been on the Wall longer than Robert was alive, and there's no reason to believe he'd care enough about the Watch to go pouring through both their records and those of the Citadel.

Spoiler reply: But then why wouldn't Ned have just told Cat that Jon wasn't his son at some point? She has that weird hate-on for the boy. Seems like a lot of bullshit to put everyone through for no good reason.

Spoiler reply reply: When Ned first brought Jon back from the war, he barely knew Catelyn; he had no real reason at all to believe that she'd be okay sheltering the best known Targaryen claimant to the throne. If anyone found out, the Starks would almost certainly have been killed as traitors, driven into exile at the very least, and Jon would have been executed out of hand. Ned (presumably) promised Lyanna that he'd keep Jon safe; telling /anyone/ would have been incredibly dangerous.

RE RE RE Spoiler: He knew Cat well enough to have knocked her up with Robb before he left and for her to be extremely upset about him having shot one off into some other chick, to the point that she treats Jon like shit. At some point in the subsequent 15 years, you'd think Ned would have trusted her (JUST her) with the truth of the matter rather than having her hate all over Jon for no reason.

I don't mean to say that's not how it is as Martin has written it. I'm certainly not that far into the story yet. I'm just saying if that's the case, it doesn't make a lot of sense. Of course, Cat being that pissy to Jon doesn't make a lot of sense to me anyway.

Yet another spoiler: She could also hate him BECAUSE he's a Targarian and therefore puts all of her true children at risk.

Raygun wrote:RE RE RE Spoiler: He knew Cat well enough to have knocked her up with Robb before he left and for her to be extremely upset about him having shot one off into some other chick, to the point that she treats Jon like shit. At some point in the subsequent 15 years, you'd think Ned would have trusted her (JUST her) with the truth of the matter rather than having her hate all over Jon for no reason.

Spoiler reply: It's a medieval setting. You don't have to know your politically arranged wife that well to knock her up and for her to be humiliated by the presence of your bastard. I think she'd have been less pissed off if he'd sent Jon off to be raised somewhere else, since as things stand Jon is there as an every day reminder to her (AND their people) of his infidelity. That's a lot of secret to trust someone you barely know.

Once you've told that lie and taken the lumps for an affair you didn't commit, coming clean doesn't really get you much. If he'd told her the truth after a few years, then she'd be pissed that he'd lied to her AND that they were harboring a kid that dangerous.

Then again, the Elf's theory is a neat twist.

More spoiler: I'm only in the first book, but he's dropping hints like crazy about Jon being Lyanna and Rhaegar's son: I'm utterly blind to subtlety when reading - I always get fooled by even the most obviously foreshadowed plot twists - and as far as I'm concerned he may as well have just named him Jon Targaryen. My understanding is that the promise he made to Lyanna at her side when she died was to raise Jon as his own and never tell anyone who he is, because she didn't want her son to suffer the same fate as the rest of the genocided Targaryens. Ned being Ned, telling no one included his wife, and the agony he and she and Jon all suffered wasn't preventable, because Ned will sacrifice all for honor.

As to Aemon, I think Sal has the right of it that: being on the Wall and having taken the black insulated Aemon from a lot, and in essence people maintained a sort of willful ignorance about it; Robert was more obsessed with killing all the Targaryens than anyone, and as long as he didn't stop to think about it too much - really, by law it seems the Targaryens and no on else gets to put "ae" in their names - then the Watch wouldn't lose its Maester.

All that said, I'm not even done with the first book, and I'm kind of stupid, so all this could simply be my fevered imaginings.

edit: Wow, I suck at spoiler tags.

Well, clearly I have some reading to do.

Haven't seen the show....have no idea what it's about. Is it really that good?

Cash wrote:Haven't seen the show....have no idea what it's about. Is it really that good?

HEATHEN! Get thee to your preferred HBO platform!

Seriously, much like ESD, this is a passable story saved by brilliant acting and direction.

No cable service...canceled DirecTV (man, they make it even harder than quitting the gym).

Cashie am I happy to see you or is that a pistol in my pocket?

It's not Cash, it's 3278. I've been creating new accounts of old posters.

That would be a really good idea. I could have a marionette theater!

Cash wrote:Haven't seen the show....have no idea what it's about. Is it really that good?

Have you not read the books? I would have guessed that you'd have read the books.

The dirty whores at my cable provider removed the Game of Thrones series from their On Demand service. Bastards!

So far I'm not sure which I prefer-the books or the series. The books obviously have more depth, but frankly the series is a hell of a lot less annoying and self righteous.

While telling the story of the Starks finding the dire wolf pups in the forest, it occurred to me: isn't the dire wolf mother killed by a stag? Is there supposed to be a metaphor in there that I'm too stupid to have grasped, that the stag [Baratheon] and the wolf [Stark] should destroy each other?

Yeah, there's lots of little nuggets like that in the story. Things happening to the pups also tend to reflect things happen to their Stark child as well.

Just started reading Dance, finally. (Thank you Borders bankruptcy!)

Well, my cable provider put GOT back on their On Demand service. Yay!

About 300 pages into A Storm of Swords now. Man, I like the way this guy writes.

Anyone else been following casting for the second season? Stephen Dillane as Stannis = genius. Gwendoline Christie as Brienne looks awesome. There were a few more I saw, and the producers seem to be changing a few things I don't agree with, but oh well. It'll likely still be awesome.

Raygun wrote:About 300 pages into A Storm of Swords now. Man, I like the way this guy writes.

Anyone else been following casting for the second season? Stephen Dillane as Stannis = genius. Gwendoline Christie as Brienne looks awesome. There were a few more I saw, and the producers seem to be changing a few things I don't agree with, but oh well. It'll likely still be awesome.

See, I hate the way he writes, but I love the world he's built. And, yeah, the casting has been pretty phenomenal all the way through. I remember seeing pictures of...whatever her name is, who plays Daenerys, and thinking, "psh - she's just some random sort-of-attractive acting student." Then I saw her in costume. "Ohhh. I get it now."

So what don't you like about the way he writes? The point-of-view chapter arrangement is pre coo, and it's arranged in a way that just keeps the hits coming. Usually when i'm three books into a series is when I start to lose interest, but I'm not here at all. When I pick up a book, I'm almost always like, "Oh, cool. This chapter ought to be good..." And it is!

Raygun wrote:So what don't you like about the way he writes?

I don't think he's a bad writer, just not a very good one. It may have been overstating it a bit to say that I hate the way he writes; he certainly does well enough to get the job done. I've just never been impressed by how well he writes. Now, how well he designs a world and tells a story, well, that's a different matter.

3278 wrote:While telling the story of the Starks finding the dire wolf pups in the forest, it occurred to me: isn't the dire wolf mother killed by a stag? Is there supposed to be a metaphor in there that I'm too stupid to have grasped, that the stag [Baratheon] and the wolf [Stark] should destroy each other?

You can read that in a couple of different ways: either the indirect route (Starks are ultimately brought down because of their involvement with the Baratheons) or the direct route (Joffrey is - in name, anyway - a Baratheon) or the foreshadowing route (Stannis kills Jon?)

AtemHutlrt wrote:

Raygun wrote:So what don't you like about the way he writes?

I don't think he's a bad writer, just not a very good one. It may have been overstating it a bit to say that I hate the way he writes; he certainly does well enough to get the job done. I've just never been impressed by how well he writes. Now, how well he designs a world and tells a story, well, that's a different matter.

That's more what I was referring to anyway. Yeah, he's not a very lyrical, humorous, or particularly descriptive writer. I like the way the story is arranged, but that's probably more editing that writing. The world is certainly fantastic.

I'm about 500 pages into A Feast for Crows now, and I'm starting to get a lot less enamored of the whole thing. I can't figure out why he would choose to leave half of the characters out except so that he can sell the next book. It's aggravating, and it feels like the story is going nowhere. After the baddassness that was the whole second half of the third book, this is just... Meh.

Have you read the Wikipedia article explanation about why the book is divided that way? I'm not sure it's any better a decision, but at least it doesn't seem sales-oriented.

Raygun wrote:

AtemHutlrt wrote:

Raygun wrote:So what don't you like about the way he writes?

I don't think he's a bad writer, just not a very good one. It may have been overstating it a bit to say that I hate the way he writes; he certainly does well enough to get the job done. I've just never been impressed by how well he writes. Now, how well he designs a world and tells a story, well, that's a different matter.

That's more what I was referring to anyway. Yeah, he's not a very lyrical, humorous, or particularly descriptive writer. I like the way the story is arranged, but that's probably more editing that writing. The world is certainly fantastic.

I'm about 500 pages into A Feast for Crows now, and I'm starting to get a lot less enamored of the whole thing. I can't figure out why he would choose to leave half of the characters out except so that he can sell the next book. It's aggravating, and it feels like the story is going nowhere. After the baddassness that was the whole second half of the third book, this is just... Meh.

AFFC is really, really good. There's not a ton of plot movement - he's moving pieces into place - but the world is fleshed out a lot more by Brienne and the Dornish and Ironborn chapters.

Fuck all happens in Dance anywhere besides the North, though.

3278 wrote:Have you read the Wikipedia article explanation about why the book is divided that way? I'm not sure it's any better a decision, but at least it doesn't seem sales-oriented.

No. I got myself into spoilers early on that I would rather I hadn't, so I've stayed away from the wikis for the most part. He does have a short explanation at the end of the book, that he felt it more necessary to 'tell all of the story for half of the characters rather than half the story for all of them' which I think wasn't that great of an idea.

Of course, he did introduce a lot of new POV characters in this book. I just don't know that that was really necessary, at least not to the extent he chose to do so.

Salvation122 wrote:

Raygun wrote:

AtemHutlrt wrote: I don't think he's a bad writer, just not a very good one. It may have been overstating it a bit to say that I hate the way he writes; he certainly does well enough to get the job done. I've just never been impressed by how well he writes. Now, how well he designs a world and tells a story, well, that's a different matter.

That's more what I was referring to anyway. Yeah, he's not a very lyrical, humorous, or particularly descriptive writer. I like the way the story is arranged, but that's probably more editing that writing. The world is certainly fantastic.

I'm about 500 pages into A Feast for Crows now, and I'm starting to get a lot less enamored of the whole thing. I can't figure out why he would choose to leave half of the characters out except so that he can sell the next book. It's aggravating, and it feels like the story is going nowhere. After the baddassness that was the whole second half of the third book, this is just... Meh.

AFFC is really, really good. There's not a ton of plot movement - he's moving pieces into place - but the world is fleshed out a lot more by Brienne and the Dornish and Ironborn chapters.

Fuck all happens in Dance anywhere besides the North, though.

It's the Stannis and Daenerys stuff I'm getting annoyed about not having. The Iron Islands stuff is good (though unnecessarily fragmented, IMO), but the Brienne stuff is going slow and the Dorne shit has been just boring the hell out of me. (Though now that I mention this, I just read a couple of chapters tonight that make it seem like shit from those points of view is finally about to ramp up, so...)

I was really, really disappointed in Dany's chapters in Dance. Like, incredibly so. There's two of her chapters where you're like HOLY SHIT, but it takes a long-ass time to get to them, and they're not that awesome.

Stannis' and Jon's chapters are pretty friggin' great, though, as well as those of other notables in the North.

Raygun wrote:He does have a short explanation at the end of the book, that he felt it more necessary to 'tell all of the story for half of the characters rather than half the story for all of them' which I think wasn't that great of an idea.

Yeah, that's roughly what Wikipedia would tell you, too. I don't think it's giving anything away to say he'd planned to skip five years ahead after Storm of Swords, but after a year's worth of writing, realized the book was going to end up being half flashback, so he scrapped it all and started over, but then the book was so long that it'd have to be two volumes.

Now, me, I'd have probably lengthened it a little more and just released another trilogy, and then write three more books where the last two books are planned, but he talked it over with some friend, and they decided to split the book by character and region, instead of chronologically, which, yeah, seems stupid to me, too. It also took a ton of extra time, which seems kind of foolish now. I've never heard of such a thing, in the middle of a series of novels, where a book's too long so you just unravel its threads rather than cutting it down the middle.

So, is everyone up to speed here? I finished A Dance with Dragons about a week ago and was wondering what everyone's thoughts on the matter are now that I can pretty much discuss everything without feeling all spoilered.

Also the second season of the TV series is about to start and I can't remember feeling so much anticipation for a TV show in my life. There's been a lot of press lately and it looks like it's easily going to be as good as the first season.

I am mid way thru Dance with Dragons. I need to get up to speed on the second season.

What'd you think of Dance, Ray?

Salvation122 wrote:What'd you think of Dance, Ray?

That lift move right at the end is what really sold it. Corners indeed, Baby.

It was better than AFFC. Still have the feeling that he's dragging it out to get all seven books in, but it didn't feel like it was trudging along as much as AFFC. And yeah, the last few chapters made pretty good cliffhangers.

Spoilers: I'm satisfied with the Daenarys storyline, glad to have caught up with Theon (actually making you feel sorry for him was a pretty impressive feat; it took A LOT), not so sure about the whole Connington/Aegon thing, though. Was kind of annoyed about the ONE Jaime/Brienne chapter, but I guess it's good to know she's still alive, though it looks like she's just gonna walk him right up to Stoneheart.

I just finished A Clash of Kings, just bought A Storm of Swords. Man, Jaqen H'ghar is probably the coolest character yet.

Yeah. I just read an interview with the actor that's playing him in the upcoming season. He's one of the characters I'm really interested in seeing how they pull off.

Just a little reminder in case you'd forgotten... TONIGHT.

Raygun wrote:Yeah. I just read an interview with the actor that's playing him in the upcoming season. He's one of the characters I'm really interested in seeing how they pull off.

So how are you feeling about him so far?

I'm really loving the back and forth with Arya and Tywin, Arya having HaQar in her back pocket just puts the icing on it.

Am I the only one who feels like they've gone off script in a few spots? I'm not saying its a bad thing, yet, just different.

Very much so, but not in a bad way. I'm 200 pages into A Feast for Crows right now.

WillyGilligan wrote:I'm really loving the back and forth with Arya and Tywin

Agreed. I beginning to think he's a lot like her father.

Tywin is not a bad person. Stern, but not without love. He loved his wife, loves his children and loves his House.

He's definitely a pragmatist, and righteous in his own way, and as skilled in psychology as his son in personal combat. And Tyrion is truly his son.

Tiny Deev wrote:Tywin is not a bad person. Stern, but not without love. He loved his wife, loves his children and loves his House.

And has no problem employing Clegane, Lorch, and Hoat. Sooooooooo.