Bulldrek v3.0

It isn't really an accepted practice in Poland but it is common. To the extent that during my high school final exams in English (grades of which are kind of decisive to which university you might go), my English teacher was reading a newspaper in order not to see us cheating so that he did not have to report it. Or e.g. another teacher came up to my desk and gave me a piece of paper from another student sitting way in front of me in the row. I was supposed to write down the correct answers... It did change a bit while we were studying but still I remember that we sat in groups during written exams - having friends around you whom you could "discuss" the exam question with if no one was watching at the time.

I always heard stories that in the western Europe or US it would not have happened.

NL: I supervised students during one written exam this year and I have not caught anyone cheating. However, just a few minutes ago a colleague of mine came up to my office and showed me a paper of one of her students which he wrote on a subject that could have been covered also by the course I gave. After I checked some things it turned out he did not submit the same paper to two courses. Worse: he committed a fraud. See, after my course I posted online the best group paper. He used that one, changed it a bit and submitted it as his for this other course. Masters student. In law. Committing that kind of stupidity.

So yeah, I was wondering - what's your experience with this.

I can't speak for others, but in my limited experience in High School and College (What little College I have under my belt.) this sort of behavior would be frowned upon, and likely result in corrective action being taken: expulsion, etc...

Up until High School, they were very strict on cheating. If you were caught, there some rather severe punishments, including in-school suspension. (Clarification: this was a private grade school)

Once in high school, it was more dependent on the teacher. Some would let you have those "discussion" groups for the exams but others were still strict on the no cheating policy. Overall, i would say that the great majority were against cheating or sharing of answers.

All of my schools have been very strict about not allowing cheating.

I'd get expelled if I tried anything like that in my classes. Even when the class is a rehash of an old class - like say, Victorian Lit - I write up a whole new paper.

In K-12, it depended on the teacher. Certainly, in high school, there was much more opportunity to cheat. The vast majority of teachers just cared about turning in grades, and most of them didn't care how the grades were achieved. While they couldn't just allow kids to use the book for "closed book" tests, but they often walked out of the room and told us to stay in our seats. Occasionally, they'd send another teacher in to "check up" on us. My personal favorite was when we were given a test by a completely clueless substitute. We convinced her that it was an open-book, group discussion test.
College, particularly State University of New York (SUNY) schools, have much stricter standards. Some have you submit papers electronically so they can send it to a website that automatically checks hundreds of databases to see if it's too similar to another paper/source/whatever. Consequences for being caught plagiarizing range from losing credit for the course (isolated incident with an otherwise "good" student) to permanent expulsion.

One point I forgot to add. Those teachers that were more relaxed about cheating were also those that focused more on thinking versus memorization. One of my math instructors was like that. She allowed us to write down every formula we might possibly need and bring it to the test. Her reasoning? In practical life, you won't have to know the equations off the top of your head, you'll be able to look them up. She wanted to make sure we understand the process on how to use the equations.

Cheating happens at all grade levels, but the farther up you go the worse the consquences are. Hell, if I cheated on an engineering exam and was caught, it would be an automatic FF, expelled from the college, and my academic career would basically be over at any accredited school.

I will say this though: just because you wrote a paper for one class doesn't make it cheating to submit it to another class, as long as the paper is all your own work (and as long as the teacher did not stipulate otherwise). You can't plagiarize yourself.

My school is also very strict on cheating -- possible expulsion and a black mark on your transcript for when you attempt graduate studies or a transfer.

When I was studying getting cought cheating (and there were cheaters...I've seen 'em do it)meant getting expelled for that specific subject and a black note in your file. Furthermore you would not be able to take any more exams in that semester.
I thought it only fair.

Cheating is very frowned upon in Denmark, but apparently is a common practice in a lot of the eastern European countries. We had several students from Poland and Hungary get in trouble in my program because they didn't take the Danish rules about cheating, bibliographies, and citations seriously.

I haven't ever had an experience in the US or Denmark where cheating has been ok.

Ancient History wrote: You can't plagiarize yourself.

I think that is true unless you're published. You always see people citing themselves when they're published.

<i>Plagiarize</i> means to pass off someone else's work and present it as your own. Therefore, you cannot plagiarize yourself, assuming that things are cited correctly.

However, if someone else -- such as a publisher -- owns your work, you can violate someone else's copyright, but you would still not be plagiarizing.

Ancient History wrote:You can't plagiarize yourself.

According to the definitions used at UNB, you absolutely can. Submitting the same paper for different classes, however relevant to both classes, is considered plagiarism.

Szechuan wrote:

Ancient History wrote:You can't plagiarize yourself.

According to the definitions used at UNB, you absolutely can. Submitting the same paper for different classes, however relevant to both classes, is considered plagiarism.

Both Adam and yourself are correct. Individual schools govern self-plagiarism differently (none of the ones I have gone to have regulated it at all), and copyright plays a large part in self-plagiarism with regard to actual publications (commercial or academic). However, none of the schools I've attended rule it plagiarism to submit the same paper to different classes. <shrug>

Szechuan wrote:According to the definitions used at UNB, you absolutely can.

According to the definition of plagarism, the UNB's definition of plagarism rapes a kitten.

Adam wrote: According to the definition of plagarism, the UNB's definition of plagarism rapes a kitten.

Well then, I shall have to stay away from the UNB.

Personally, I hate cheating and plagarism, hell, I dislike my own research being cited by someone else (funny story there, a student at a school once cited as a factual source a short story I had written and put online, I can only hope he got an F), and when I bother to pursue education, I tend to do so at places that have vigorous (or at least supposedly vigorous) anti-cheating and plagarism policies.

I dislike my own research being cited by someone else

After this statement, I think you should spend plenty of time under the UNB.

Adam wrote:

Szechuan wrote:According to the definitions used at UNB, you absolutely can.

According to the definition of plagarism, the UNB's definition of plagarism rapes a kitten.

I did some more research, and the only references to self-plagiarism I can find refer to using your own copyrighted or published work. Whether or not a student essay legally falls under that heading, I don't know.

By that definition, you're plagarising yourself every single time you write something, since everything you write is immediately covered by copyright law...

I think he's right, actually. I don't remember if it was my undergrad or grad school, but I think one of them had some plagarism rule about that.

I'm not saying that his school doesn't do that, but based on his explanation of it [which I'm sure is paraphrased], it basically means that anytime a student writes anything, they are, according to the school's rules, plagarising themselves. In Canada, and the USA, work you produce that can be covered by copyright is covered by copyright the moment it is expressed in a tangible form: written down, recorded on your iPod voice recorder, etc.

So I just copyrighted "Fuck You!" when I was driving to work this evening? Nice.

It's ridiculous to ban "self-plagiarism" anyway. If the paper meets the criteria for both assignments, it should be legitimately submittable for two assignments - it's foolish (and bad, educationally) to expect the student to make up brand-new opinions and arguments for the second essay just because he's not allowed to repeat the first paper.

In Australia, plagiarism is taken seriously at a tertiary education level. Minor incidences (inadequate referencing, very minor use of verbatim quotes without references, etc) will usually get your marks reduced. More serious plagiarism, and cheating in exams, will at _minimum_ get you a zero mark for the assessment item, usually get you failed for the entire unit, and sometimes suspended/excluded/expelled.

At a high school level, god knows. I doubt it would be expulsion; probably suspension and academic penalties.

Jeff Hauze wrote:So I just copyrighted "Fuck You!" when I was driving to work this evening? Nice.

No. You can't copyright short phrases -- you can't even trademark them, only a particular expression of them without a certain field. Sorry.

Adam wrote:No. You can't copyright short phrases -- you can't even trademark them, only a particular expression of them without a certain field. Sorry.

Well where's the fun in that? I'm sorry, but you and your laws lose. I win.

Hey, they aren't /my/ laws. See "It's Just a Number"

Look, it's Canada's fault. I'm sorry, but you'll just have to accept that and learn to live with it. Even the guys from South Park know to Blame Canada. It hurts, White Jesus, I know that. But the truth does hurt.

In the case I mentioned the student ended up submitting a paper of someone else from my course as his own for this other course. He changed the wording but the whole paper structure and ideas were not his. That is plagiarism alright.

I asked what kind of consequences he will be facing. He was invited for a conversation with the lecturer of this other course. Depending on him showing remorse or not - he will be either asked to submit another paper or will be informed that he is failing this course. To me it does not sound like a harsh punishment at all.

Adam wrote:I'm not saying that his school doesn't do that, but based on his explanation of it [which I'm sure is paraphrased], it basically means that anytime a student writes anything, they are, according to the school's rules, plagarising themselves. In Canada, and the USA, work you produce that can be covered by copyright is covered by copyright the moment it is expressed in a tangible form: written down, recorded on your iPod voice recorder, etc.

The definition isn't from my school. Google "Self-Plagiarism".

It seems that few really agree on what self-plagarism *is.*

I did a little bit of reading, and I like this article's take: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~hexham/study/plag.html -- it defines the problem as _misleading the reader_ as opposed to _re-using your own work_.

Jeff: I'm really sick of Canada/Canadian jokes directed at me, especially when they're completely irrelevant to the situation and not funny. So if you could desist, I'd appreciate that. If you'd like further explanation, I'll explain it to you over PM.

Mostly just a product of being bored at work. We'll return you all to the pre-hijacked thread now.

As for the self-plagarism bit, write a new paper. New assignment, new paper. That's how it always got treated in my classes.

It still doesn't make sense, though.

If they up-front acknowledge "okay, we're making you write a new paper, because part of this course is learning how to formulate arguments on any position, not just argue your own point of view", then okay. Frustrating for the student, but it has some educational merit.

But if you're trying to pretend that the document is a real academic exercise, requiring the writer to write a brand new paper even if they're reiterating the same points seems like making the student jump through pointless hoops. If the point of the exercise is to assess how well the student understands a subject and can argue for a given point of view, it shouldn't matter whether the paper was written six months ago for an equivalent class, or last week for this class - it should be examined on its own merits. Just because another lecturer has seen it for another class doesn't automatically make it any less valid for this one.

Jestyr wrote:But if you're trying to pretend that the document is a real academic exercise, requiring the writer to write a brand new paper even if they're reiterating the same points seems like making the student jump through pointless hoops.

That seems to be pretty much one of the primary goals of much of the U.S. education system.

Adam wrote:

I dislike my own research being cited by someone else

After this statement, I think you should spend plenty of time under the UNB.

Seconded. Barring some sort of explanation, I think that's fucking horrible.

Short version, my own research is not original, and I feel that people could better spend their time drawing their own conclusions from the same sources instead of copying my own faulty logic.

If your own research is flawed enough that you don't want other people to cite it, you shouldn't be sharing it.

If your own research is flawed enough that you don't want other people to cite it, you should be doing more original research. I mean, what do you mean, "my own research is not original?"

I don't get it, either. Research that is not original should not be published at all, in the first place. There are actually some authorities supervising it.

Okay, perhaps I'm having a fundamental breakdown of language here, as does happen from time to time, let's just drop that part of my post and call me a crazy fool, okay?

Or you could explain what you're actually doing, of course. Unless it's classified. Is it classified? If it's classified, you probably shouldn't tell us.

So in an attempt to redirect this thread have any of you ever cheated? Why? What was the result?

I cheated on my tests in physics repeatedly in high school. Physics was the only subject I never ever liked and did not comprehend it (except optics and astronomy within it maybe). I knew all the formulas but never knew when to use which one. So I got tips on that from guys sitting behind me or in front of me in a row. Result: finished high school with equivalent of B+ in physics and my teacher trying to convince me to take an oral test with her to upgrade my grade to A. I had a really terrified face when she suggested it.

I cheated some in jr high and high school. Mostly in copying someone else's homework because I was too lazy to do it myself. Sometimes on tests/quizes. Never on papers. Never plagerised. I have not cheated at all in college (that I recall). For the most part I didn't feel bad about it. I did feel bad about cheating on a quiz in one class and ended up telling the teacher and I took a zero. I guess I just felt guilty cause I liked the teacher in that particular instance. I don't remember if she actually gave me a zero or if she let me keep the grade I got because I was honest. Oh, man, the worst was Spanish. I would've never gotten through Spanish without some help.

I don't recall ever having cheated, educationally, largely because anyone I could have copied from would have given me worse marks than my own.

I knew a lot of kids who smuggled formulae into exams...but then, I think if it is an exam, all the formulae should be provided.

Ancient History wrote:I knew a lot of kids who smuggled formulae into exams...but then, I think if it is an exam, all the formulae should be provided.

I was taking a test in math once in high school, and completely blanked on the quadratic equation, which we'd just started studying. So I started from general principles and re-engineered the equation, and was able to provide the correct result. Personally, I think it's more important to be able to recreate - and thus understand - the basis for math than it is to simply look on the board, read off the equation, and plug the numbers in. That's arithmetic, and it's the least important part of mathematics. If you want something to remember the equation or compute the equation, buy a computer. What is important is understanding the equation.

3278 wrote:I was taking a test in math once in high school, and completely blanked on the quadratic equation, which we'd just started studying. So I started from general principles and re-engineered the equation, and was able to provide the correct result. Personally, I think it's more important to be able to recreate - and thus understand - the basis for math than it is to simply look on the board, read off the equation, and plug the numbers in. That's arithmetic, and it's the least important part of mathematics. If you want something to remember the equation or compute the equation, buy a computer. What is important is understanding the equation.

Dear God I wish math had been taught that way. I can't remember mathematical formulas from even alegbra with any regularity anymore.

Deriving formulae is fine when you're taking shit-for-grins physics or trig, but it's a touch of a pain in the ass when you're looking at a chapter on electronic materials with over a hundred formulae in it. I agree that understanding the principles and derivation behind a formula is important, and indeed correctly analyzing the problem is more important than the exact cookie-cutter method or formula you use to solve it, but beyond a certain basic point deriving your own formulae is impractical.

Jeff Hauze wrote:Dear God I wish math had been taught that way. I can't remember mathematical formulas from even alegbra with any regularity anymore.

Neither can I, but because I understand them, I can figure them out when I need them. Not as fast as remembering, but remembering isn't something I do.

I think this approach should be much more common in school. I think it would result in more children who develop independent thought, inventiveness, and new ideas than the simple recitation which is so common today in the US. Germany had great success with this in their technical schools in the 19th century. One of their students invented artificial blue dye, and began the craze for anilines which culminated in your being able to buy whatever color shirt you desire.