Bulldrek v3.0

Can anyone explain to me why Charisma is used as the Sorcerers prime attribute? What does being able to relat to people have to do with Magic?

They're good at thinking on their feet and responding to subtle variances in the Weave? Think of it as being able to relate to Magic well in addition to relating to people well.

[voice class="The Metatron"] They're funny... great at parties... [/voice]

I don't think that Charisma is a stat meant to translate the ability of a character to "relate to other people." Being able to relate to someone is hidden in Intelligence and mostly Wisdom, I think.

But to answer your question; no clue. Useful, no?

I've always seen D&D Charisma as being similar to the Shadowrun force of spirit idea instead of just an attractiveness issue. Since sorcerers rely on their innate ability rather than what they've been taught, it makes sense that Charisma is their prime stat.

I'll buy that. Interesting explanations. Probably a hell of a lot better then WOTC can come up with.

Also, unlike wizards who empower their magic with a innate understanding of the ancient and dusty tomes from which their spells come (intelligence), sorcerers, and bards besides, count on the force of their personalities to carry their spells to their targets.

Cazmonster wrote:Also, unlike wizards who empower their magic with a innate understanding of the ancient and dusty tomes from which their spells come (intelligence), sorcerers, and bards besides, count on the force of their personalities to carry their spells to their targets.

So.. they convince you that the spell is happening?

[voice class="Sorcerer Casting Fireball"]I'm burning you with a giant fireball! Don't you feel the flames... big ball, lots of heat... Come on, don't you believe me? [/voice]

Hmmm. Makes more sense for mind-altering spells...

[voice class="Sorcerer Casting Suggestion"] These are not the droids you're looking for... [/voice]

"I'm squishing your head!"

<chuckles>

Evan

Not that I'm really all that D&D knowledgable, but I always kind of lumped confidence/self-assurence in with apparenance and natural charm as part of what was covered by Charisma, so Sorcerers/esses use it because their magic is directly based on what they think they can do instead of what they learned to do like wizards.

In DnD3, Charisma represents force of personality. It's more than just people skills. This is why turning/rebuking is also based on Charisma. To quote the Charisma description, "Charisma measures a character's force of personality...represents actual personal strength, not merely how one is percived by others." As sorcerers gain their spells from themselves, it makes sense for the stat governing their sense of self to control their spellcasting.

Does that answer the question?

By that definition, Charisma measures one's self-confidence and would therefore make a helluva lot more sense as the modifier for Will saves (rather than Wisdom)...

Here's a little something I've learned about WotC that I'd like to share: Once they slap on their "D&D hats", they seem to have their collective heads jammed right up in their collective rectums, so the best thing to do in order to avoid unnecessary headaches is to just go with it and not question it too much. That, or give the rules a major overhaul like I did, but then again, I tend to be a bit of an overachiever when it comes to RPGs.

In D&D, where there is no equivalent "Willpower" attribute, Charisma could be seen as your ability to force your will upon the world, through sheer force of "personality". Not in the sense of being a flamboyant or noticeable person; Charisma is - to me - a measure of your integrity of self; how strong your "self" is as an entity, and therefore how capable you are of pushing it on the rest of the world. So, yeah, it would probably make more sense for it to be the modifier for Will saves, too.

Ok, I'll buy that.

Charisma=Force of Personality.
Wisdom=Common Sense.

How does common sense affect one's willpower, especially over force of personality?

Oh, and does anybody have links to Monte Cook's character classes? I have a copy of his ranger class, which I like more than the one in the core rulebook, but I can't find the other ones that have been done, which are Sorcerer, and Bard I believe.

Icepick wrote:Wisdom=Common Sense.

Actually, it's more like: Wisdom = Awareness + Common Sense.

Icepick wrote:How does common sense affect one's willpower, especially over force of personality?

It doesn't; the d20 system is just fucked like that.

Yeah, go fig, and somebody else at the game store I frequent actually was like this.

Me:"Wouldn't it makes sense for Charisma to give you Will saves since it's your force of will? Why do you ALWAYS intimidate with charisma? It doesn't make sense for a gigantic thing with no charisma not to be able to intimidate."
Him:"No. Wisdom gives you will saves. As for the intimidation thing, I'll think about it."
Me:"Then how do sorcerers cast spells, and clerics and paladins turn with Charisma?"
Him"I don't know they just do."
Me:"Oh, and you do know that when it says level for your characters on the class chapter that's supposed to be class level, and not character level."
Him:"Shut up, you're wrong, I'm the GM. I'm saying no to your idea about intimidation and strength too."
Me:"Yup, and that's why I'm not in your game. You're focusing too much on some rules, and not enough on common sense."

Common sense is quite often neglected when it comes to game rules.