Game of Thrones
- Salvation122
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I think it's funny how much is made by various people [in the books] about how all the Targaryens are dead, and how obsessed various people [say, King Robert] are with making sure they're all dead, when in fact there are at least two [besides Daenerys and Viserys] remaining, one of whom everyone kind of knows is a Targaryen but seems to have forgotten!
- Salvation122
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I suspect that 32 put some clues together to come to the same general consensus as the fandom.
Speculative spoilers:
It is generally assumed, based on a story in Book 3, that Jon Snow is the child of Lyanna and Rhaegar. There are a lot of indications that they ran away together, not that Lyanna was kidnapped, but the Tourney at Harenhall story in book 3 pretty much seals it.
Aemon isn't really considered because he already turned down the regency when it was offered to him, and because family affiliations are wiped when you join the Night's Watch. It's also entirely possible that Robert was unaware that Aemon was a Targaryen; it's not something Aemon advertises, he's been on the Wall longer than Robert was alive, and there's no reason to believe he'd care enough about the Watch to go pouring through both their records and those of the Citadel.
Speculative spoilers:
It is generally assumed, based on a story in Book 3, that Jon Snow is the child of Lyanna and Rhaegar. There are a lot of indications that they ran away together, not that Lyanna was kidnapped, but the Tourney at Harenhall story in book 3 pretty much seals it.
Aemon isn't really considered because he already turned down the regency when it was offered to him, and because family affiliations are wiped when you join the Night's Watch. It's also entirely possible that Robert was unaware that Aemon was a Targaryen; it's not something Aemon advertises, he's been on the Wall longer than Robert was alive, and there's no reason to believe he'd care enough about the Watch to go pouring through both their records and those of the Citadel.
- Salvation122
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Spoiler reply reply: When Ned first brought Jon back from the war, he barely knew Catelyn; he had no real reason at all to believe that she'd be okay sheltering the best known Targaryen claimant to the throne. If anyone found out, the Starks would almost certainly have been killed as traitors, driven into exile at the very least, and Jon would have been executed out of hand. Ned (presumably) promised Lyanna that he'd keep Jon safe; telling /anyone/ would have been incredibly dangerous.
RE RE RE Spoiler: He knew Cat well enough to have knocked her up with Robb before he left and for her to be extremely upset about him having shot one off into some other chick, to the point that she treats Jon like shit. At some point in the subsequent 15 years, you'd think Ned would have trusted her (JUST her) with the truth of the matter rather than having her hate all over Jon for no reason.
I don't mean to say that's not how it is as Martin has written it. I'm certainly not that far into the story yet. I'm just saying if that's the case, it doesn't make a lot of sense. Of course, Cat being that pissy to Jon doesn't make a lot of sense to me anyway.
I don't mean to say that's not how it is as Martin has written it. I'm certainly not that far into the story yet. I'm just saying if that's the case, it doesn't make a lot of sense. Of course, Cat being that pissy to Jon doesn't make a lot of sense to me anyway.
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Spoiler reply: It's a medieval setting. You don't have to know your politically arranged wife that well to knock her up and for her to be humiliated by the presence of your bastard. I think she'd have been less pissed off if he'd sent Jon off to be raised somewhere else, since as things stand Jon is there as an every day reminder to her (AND their people) of his infidelity. That's a lot of secret to trust someone you barely know.Raygun wrote:RE RE RE Spoiler: He knew Cat well enough to have knocked her up with Robb before he left and for her to be extremely upset about him having shot one off into some other chick, to the point that she treats Jon like shit. At some point in the subsequent 15 years, you'd think Ned would have trusted her (JUST her) with the truth of the matter rather than having her hate all over Jon for no reason.
Once you've told that lie and taken the lumps for an affair you didn't commit, coming clean doesn't really get you much. If he'd told her the truth after a few years, then she'd be pissed that he'd lied to her AND that they were harboring a kid that dangerous.
Then again, the Elf's theory is a neat twist.
Those who can't, teach. Those who can't teach, become critics. They also misapply overly niggling inerpretations of Logical Fallacies in place of arguing anything at all.
More spoiler: I'm only in the first book, but he's dropping hints like crazy about Jon being Lyanna and Rhaegar's son: I'm utterly blind to subtlety when reading - I always get fooled by even the most obviously foreshadowed plot twists - and as far as I'm concerned he may as well have just named him Jon Targaryen. My understanding is that the promise he made to Lyanna at her side when she died was to raise Jon as his own and never tell anyone who he is, because she didn't want her son to suffer the same fate as the rest of the genocided Targaryens. Ned being Ned, telling no one included his wife, and the agony he and she and Jon all suffered wasn't preventable, because Ned will sacrifice all for honor.
As to Aemon, I think Sal has the right of it that: being on the Wall and having taken the black insulated Aemon from a lot, and in essence people maintained a sort of willful ignorance about it; Robert was more obsessed with killing all the Targaryens than anyone, and as long as he didn't stop to think about it too much - really, by law it seems the Targaryens and no on else gets to put "ae" in their names - then the Watch wouldn't lose its Maester.
All that said, I'm not even done with the first book, and I'm kind of stupid, so all this could simply be my fevered imaginings.
edit: Wow, I suck at spoiler tags.
As to Aemon, I think Sal has the right of it that: being on the Wall and having taken the black insulated Aemon from a lot, and in essence people maintained a sort of willful ignorance about it; Robert was more obsessed with killing all the Targaryens than anyone, and as long as he didn't stop to think about it too much - really, by law it seems the Targaryens and no on else gets to put "ae" in their names - then the Watch wouldn't lose its Maester.
All that said, I'm not even done with the first book, and I'm kind of stupid, so all this could simply be my fevered imaginings.
edit: Wow, I suck at spoiler tags.
Last edited by 3278 on Sun Jul 17, 2011 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Yeah, there's lots of little nuggets like that in the story. Things happening to the pups also tend to reflect things happen to their Stark child as well.
Just started reading Dance, finally. (Thank you Borders bankruptcy!)
Just started reading Dance, finally. (Thank you Borders bankruptcy!)
Those who can't, teach. Those who can't teach, become critics. They also misapply overly niggling inerpretations of Logical Fallacies in place of arguing anything at all.
Well, my cable provider put GOT back on their On Demand service. Yay!
About 300 pages into A Storm of Swords now. Man, I like the way this guy writes.
Anyone else been following casting for the second season? Stephen Dillane as Stannis = genius. Gwendoline Christie as Brienne looks awesome. There were a few more I saw, and the producers seem to be changing a few things I don't agree with, but oh well. It'll likely still be awesome.
About 300 pages into A Storm of Swords now. Man, I like the way this guy writes.
Anyone else been following casting for the second season? Stephen Dillane as Stannis = genius. Gwendoline Christie as Brienne looks awesome. There were a few more I saw, and the producers seem to be changing a few things I don't agree with, but oh well. It'll likely still be awesome.
- AtemHutlrt
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See, I hate the way he writes, but I love the world he's built. And, yeah, the casting has been pretty phenomenal all the way through. I remember seeing pictures of...whatever her name is, who plays Daenerys, and thinking, "psh - she's just some random sort-of-attractive acting student." Then I saw her in costume. "Ohhh. I get it now."Raygun wrote:About 300 pages into A Storm of Swords now. Man, I like the way this guy writes.
Anyone else been following casting for the second season? Stephen Dillane as Stannis = genius. Gwendoline Christie as Brienne looks awesome. There were a few more I saw, and the producers seem to be changing a few things I don't agree with, but oh well. It'll likely still be awesome.
The sun shines in my bedroom
when you play;
and the rain it always starts
when you go away
when you play;
and the rain it always starts
when you go away
So what don't you like about the way he writes? The point-of-view chapter arrangement is pre coo, and it's arranged in a way that just keeps the hits coming. Usually when i'm three books into a series is when I start to lose interest, but I'm not here at all. When I pick up a book, I'm almost always like, "Oh, cool. This chapter ought to be good..." And it is!
- AtemHutlrt
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I don't think he's a bad writer, just not a very good one. It may have been overstating it a bit to say that I hate the way he writes; he certainly does well enough to get the job done. I've just never been impressed by how well he writes. Now, how well he designs a world and tells a story, well, that's a different matter.Raygun wrote:So what don't you like about the way he writes?
The sun shines in my bedroom
when you play;
and the rain it always starts
when you go away
when you play;
and the rain it always starts
when you go away
- Salvation122
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You can read that in a couple of different ways: either the indirect route (Starks are ultimately brought down because of their involvement with the Baratheons) or the direct route (Joffrey is - in name, anyway - a Baratheon) or the foreshadowing route (Stannis kills Jon?)3278 wrote:While telling the story of the Starks finding the dire wolf pups in the forest, it occurred to me: isn't the dire wolf mother killed by a stag? Is there supposed to be a metaphor in there that I'm too stupid to have grasped, that the stag [Baratheon] and the wolf [Stark] should destroy each other?
That's more what I was referring to anyway. Yeah, he's not a very lyrical, humorous, or particularly descriptive writer. I like the way the story is arranged, but that's probably more editing that writing. The world is certainly fantastic.AtemHutlrt wrote:I don't think he's a bad writer, just not a very good one. It may have been overstating it a bit to say that I hate the way he writes; he certainly does well enough to get the job done. I've just never been impressed by how well he writes. Now, how well he designs a world and tells a story, well, that's a different matter.Raygun wrote:So what don't you like about the way he writes?
I'm about 500 pages into A Feast for Crows now, and I'm starting to get a lot less enamored of the whole thing. I can't figure out why he would choose to leave half of the characters out except so that he can sell the next book. It's aggravating, and it feels like the story is going nowhere. After the baddassness that was the whole second half of the third book, this is just... Meh.
It's all about crystal meth and Gwar. - Hauze
- Salvation122
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AFFC is really, really good. There's not a ton of plot movement - he's moving pieces into place - but the world is fleshed out a lot more by Brienne and the Dornish and Ironborn chapters.Raygun wrote:That's more what I was referring to anyway. Yeah, he's not a very lyrical, humorous, or particularly descriptive writer. I like the way the story is arranged, but that's probably more editing that writing. The world is certainly fantastic.AtemHutlrt wrote:I don't think he's a bad writer, just not a very good one. It may have been overstating it a bit to say that I hate the way he writes; he certainly does well enough to get the job done. I've just never been impressed by how well he writes. Now, how well he designs a world and tells a story, well, that's a different matter.Raygun wrote:So what don't you like about the way he writes?
I'm about 500 pages into A Feast for Crows now, and I'm starting to get a lot less enamored of the whole thing. I can't figure out why he would choose to leave half of the characters out except so that he can sell the next book. It's aggravating, and it feels like the story is going nowhere. After the baddassness that was the whole second half of the third book, this is just... Meh.
Fuck all happens in Dance anywhere besides the North, though.
No. I got myself into spoilers early on that I would rather I hadn't, so I've stayed away from the wikis for the most part. He does have a short explanation at the end of the book, that he felt it more necessary to 'tell all of the story for half of the characters rather than half the story for all of them' which I think wasn't that great of an idea.3278 wrote:Have you read the Wikipedia article explanation about why the book is divided that way? I'm not sure it's any better a decision, but at least it doesn't seem sales-oriented.
Of course, he did introduce a lot of new POV characters in this book. I just don't know that that was really necessary, at least not to the extent he chose to do so.
It's the Stannis and Daenerys stuff I'm getting annoyed about not having. The Iron Islands stuff is good (though unnecessarily fragmented, IMO), but the Brienne stuff is going slow and the Dorne shit has been just boring the hell out of me. (Though now that I mention this, I just read a couple of chapters tonight that make it seem like shit from those points of view is finally about to ramp up, so...)Salvation122 wrote:AFFC is really, really good. There's not a ton of plot movement - he's moving pieces into place - but the world is fleshed out a lot more by Brienne and the Dornish and Ironborn chapters.Raygun wrote:That's more what I was referring to anyway. Yeah, he's not a very lyrical, humorous, or particularly descriptive writer. I like the way the story is arranged, but that's probably more editing that writing. The world is certainly fantastic.AtemHutlrt wrote: I don't think he's a bad writer, just not a very good one. It may have been overstating it a bit to say that I hate the way he writes; he certainly does well enough to get the job done. I've just never been impressed by how well he writes. Now, how well he designs a world and tells a story, well, that's a different matter.
I'm about 500 pages into A Feast for Crows now, and I'm starting to get a lot less enamored of the whole thing. I can't figure out why he would choose to leave half of the characters out except so that he can sell the next book. It's aggravating, and it feels like the story is going nowhere. After the baddassness that was the whole second half of the third book, this is just... Meh.
Fuck all happens in Dance anywhere besides the North, though.
It's all about crystal meth and Gwar. - Hauze
- Salvation122
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I was really, really disappointed in Dany's chapters in Dance. Like, incredibly so. There's two of her chapters where you're like HOLY SHIT, but it takes a long-ass time to get to them, and they're not that awesome.
Stannis' and Jon's chapters are pretty friggin' great, though, as well as those of other notables in the North.
Stannis' and Jon's chapters are pretty friggin' great, though, as well as those of other notables in the North.
Yeah, that's roughly what Wikipedia would tell you, too. I don't think it's giving anything away to say he'd planned to skip five years ahead after Storm of Swords, but after a year's worth of writing, realized the book was going to end up being half flashback, so he scrapped it all and started over, but then the book was so long that it'd have to be two volumes.Raygun wrote:He does have a short explanation at the end of the book, that he felt it more necessary to 'tell all of the story for half of the characters rather than half the story for all of them' which I think wasn't that great of an idea.
Now, me, I'd have probably lengthened it a little more and just released another trilogy, and then write three more books where the last two books are planned, but he talked it over with some friend, and they decided to split the book by character and region, instead of chronologically, which, yeah, seems stupid to me, too. It also took a ton of extra time, which seems kind of foolish now. I've never heard of such a thing, in the middle of a series of novels, where a book's too long so you just unravel its threads rather than cutting it down the middle.
So, is everyone up to speed here? I finished A Dance with Dragons about a week ago and was wondering what everyone's thoughts on the matter are now that I can pretty much discuss everything without feeling all spoilered.
Also the second season of the TV series is about to start and I can't remember feeling so much anticipation for a TV show in my life. There's been a lot of press lately and it looks like it's easily going to be as good as the first season.
Also the second season of the TV series is about to start and I can't remember feeling so much anticipation for a TV show in my life. There's been a lot of press lately and it looks like it's easily going to be as good as the first season.
It's all about crystal meth and Gwar. - Hauze
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- Salvation122
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- Jeff Hauze
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It was better than AFFC. Still have the feeling that he's dragging it out to get all seven books in, but it didn't feel like it was trudging along as much as AFFC. And yeah, the last few chapters made pretty good cliffhangers.
Spoilers: I'm satisfied with the Daenarys storyline, glad to have caught up with Theon (actually making you feel sorry for him was a pretty impressive feat; it took A LOT), not so sure about the whole Connington/Aegon thing, though. Was kind of annoyed about the ONE Jaime/Brienne chapter, but I guess it's good to know she's still alive, though it looks like she's just gonna walk him right up to Stoneheart.
Spoilers: I'm satisfied with the Daenarys storyline, glad to have caught up with Theon (actually making you feel sorry for him was a pretty impressive feat; it took A LOT), not so sure about the whole Connington/Aegon thing, though. Was kind of annoyed about the ONE Jaime/Brienne chapter, but I guess it's good to know she's still alive, though it looks like she's just gonna walk him right up to Stoneheart.
It's all about crystal meth and Gwar. - Hauze
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So how are you feeling about him so far?Raygun wrote:Yeah. I just read an interview with the actor that's playing him in the upcoming season. He's one of the characters I'm really interested in seeing how they pull off.
I'm really loving the back and forth with Arya and Tywin, Arya having HaQar in her back pocket just puts the icing on it.
Those who can't, teach. Those who can't teach, become critics. They also misapply overly niggling inerpretations of Logical Fallacies in place of arguing anything at all.
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- Salvation122
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